Javier Rodríguez
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Javier Rodríguez
asked on 19 May 2009, 10:04 PM
Hello,
Our company decided over a year ago to utilize the Telerik control set. We are now finding that every release requires many hours to fix all the incompatablities your new versions create.
Here are the support tickets for just the last release:
Within our company these tickets represent 47 hours of work by my team and we still have not addressed all the problems:
Now we are having problems with RadWindow. Here is the latest reply from your team:
The problem here is due to the fact that you are using DNN that use HTML DocType:
Our company decided over a year ago to utilize the Telerik control set. We are now finding that every release requires many hours to fix all the incompatablities your new versions create.
Here are the support tickets for just the last release:
Ticket ID: 207320 Various Style Problems with version (v. 2009.1.402.20)
Ticket ID: 202049 Problems caused by conflict between Radmenu and Grid context-menu
Ticket ID: 212575 RadWindow problems using last version 2009.1.402
Within our company these tickets represent 47 hours of work by my team and we still have not addressed all the problems:
Ticket ID: 1835 Problems with CSS in Telerik (v. 2009.1.402.20) - 32.00hs
Ticket ID: 1854 New Telerik Pagination control at requires to be reviewed – 6.50hs
Ticket: 1924 LMS review bugs testing report telerik - 8.75hs
Now we are having problems with RadWindow. Here is the latest reply from your team:
The problem here is due to the fact that you are using DNN that use HTML DocType:
<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"
RadWindow
(and all RadControls) for ASP.NET AJAX are built upon the MS Ajax
framework that uses XHTML DocType and they rely to this DocType for
proper showing and positioning on the page.
In your case we could suggest one of the following solutions:
- Upgrade to a recent version of DNN (4.9x and above) where XHTML DocType is used.
- Restrict the maximizing of the RadWindow by using the Behaviors property.
Regards,
Georgi Tunev
We have invested 8 man years into a Learning Management System that installs as a module set into the DotNetNuke portal framework. Your team continues to break our product with each new release and now you are telling us that "All RadControls rely on XHTML for proper positioning"? The bulk of DNN websites (our customers) are using skins that are NOT XHTML doctype. What should we tell all these people? They have to change their site skin to run our LMS?!?!?
Last September when you hammered the name spaces - which requires clients who upgrade to delete dll's using FTP (try explaining this over the phone) you assured me: "Backwards compatibility is now a critical priority for all new releases. We now have a mature product which will not change as much as in the past and we can assure you that breaking changes will be restrained to the absolute minimum."
http://www.telerik.com/community/forums/aspnet-ajax/chart/problem-with-dll.aspx
Questions:
1 - Is there anyone inyour organization that cares about backward compatablity?
2 - How can we possibly continue to utilize your control set given that we market to a wide audience of DNN users?
3 - It would take us at least 3 months to remove all your controls from our application. what are our options?
4 - You've assured me before that your upgrades would be "restrained to the absolute minimum." Can I trust your company any longer?
I'm trying to run a business. Our product launch is already behind. I need to pay my staff - we have wives and families to feed. This is not just a technical problem.
A thoughtful, considerate and helpful reply would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Chris
6 Answers, 1 is accepted
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Javier Rodríguez
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answered on 20 May 2009, 06:03 AM
Tonight I spent 10 minutes editing text on my DNN website and found 3 new errors with the RadEditor that are new with your latest release:
- a graphic problem - the question mark icon has a yellow backing.
- a strange situation where I could not access the "update" link so I had to copy the text, open a new browser, re-edit the page and paste the text in a new RadEditor window
- the Paste Plain Text dialog window for FireFox does not present vertical scroll bars after I pasted a large amount of text. So I could not fully review.
Tell me - do I need to make my DNN skin XHTML compliant? This will break the skin. Are you going to fix my skin for me? What about all my clients?
Will somebody please wake me up and tell me I'm in a bad dream...
- a graphic problem - the question mark icon has a yellow backing.
- a strange situation where I could not access the "update" link so I had to copy the text, open a new browser, re-edit the page and paste the text in a new RadEditor window
- the Paste Plain Text dialog window for FireFox does not present vertical scroll bars after I pasted a large amount of text. So I could not fully review.
Tell me - do I need to make my DNN skin XHTML compliant? This will break the skin. Are you going to fix my skin for me? What about all my clients?
Will somebody please wake me up and tell me I'm in a bad dream...
0
Hello Chris,
Please accept our sincere apologies for all the problems you have experienced with RadControls.
We have introduced a few breaking changes over the course of the last few months and unfortunately you have hit all of them. We always face huge dilemmas when we consider the option to introduce something which will cause problems to existing customers. Striving to make better and better tools for our customers we often find improved ways to implement something. Before deciding to introduce a breaking change we thoroughly exhaust all other implementation options. Unfortunately, in some cases there are no other options. Then, we carefully consider all the benefits that customers will get from the change and all the negatives that will come with it. We do our best to keep the negatives as minimal as possible.
For instance, in the case of the recent CSS/skinning changes we have offered all customers to send us their projects and we have updated many files for anyone who has contacted us. We have also provided a conversion tool and ported all the previous skins as well. Yesterday we introduced the first preview of the Visual Style Builder tool as well – this will help a lot of people and will make their lives much easier. We have also covered the changes with the Charting.dll in a couple of blogposts and did our best to inform all customers in advance and prepare them for the changes.
I have carefully reviewed all your support communication and will be available for assistance on any of them. Generally, RadControls are optimized to work in XHTML mode. Most of the controls and features behave as expected in non-XHTML mode as well but there are some exceptions as the ones with RadWindow and RadEditor. We are ready to help you with your product and upgrade to XHTML-compliant mode (the current default for DNN). Just send us a support ticket and we will assist.
In all cases, I will send you an email to get more info on your problems and discuss possible ways to address them.
I do understand your frustration and we will do our best to help you take the most of RadControls. However if you choose not to use RadControls we are ready to make a full refund for your purchase as a small token of our understanding for the problems you have faced.
Best Regards,
Ivo Nedkov
Unit Manager, RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX
Telerik
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Please accept our sincere apologies for all the problems you have experienced with RadControls.
We have introduced a few breaking changes over the course of the last few months and unfortunately you have hit all of them. We always face huge dilemmas when we consider the option to introduce something which will cause problems to existing customers. Striving to make better and better tools for our customers we often find improved ways to implement something. Before deciding to introduce a breaking change we thoroughly exhaust all other implementation options. Unfortunately, in some cases there are no other options. Then, we carefully consider all the benefits that customers will get from the change and all the negatives that will come with it. We do our best to keep the negatives as minimal as possible.
For instance, in the case of the recent CSS/skinning changes we have offered all customers to send us their projects and we have updated many files for anyone who has contacted us. We have also provided a conversion tool and ported all the previous skins as well. Yesterday we introduced the first preview of the Visual Style Builder tool as well – this will help a lot of people and will make their lives much easier. We have also covered the changes with the Charting.dll in a couple of blogposts and did our best to inform all customers in advance and prepare them for the changes.
I have carefully reviewed all your support communication and will be available for assistance on any of them. Generally, RadControls are optimized to work in XHTML mode. Most of the controls and features behave as expected in non-XHTML mode as well but there are some exceptions as the ones with RadWindow and RadEditor. We are ready to help you with your product and upgrade to XHTML-compliant mode (the current default for DNN). Just send us a support ticket and we will assist.
In all cases, I will send you an email to get more info on your problems and discuss possible ways to address them.
I do understand your frustration and we will do our best to help you take the most of RadControls. However if you choose not to use RadControls we are ready to make a full refund for your purchase as a small token of our understanding for the problems you have faced.
Best Regards,
Ivo Nedkov
Unit Manager, RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX
Telerik
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Javier Rodríguez
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answered on 20 May 2009, 03:24 PM
Hi Ivo,
I've developed software over the last 30 years and I understand the balance between moving ahead and maintaining backwards compatibility. Your team has consistently provided helpful and cheerful support. All of this I appreciate.
What I don't understand is how can we, or any other development team, utilize the RadControls in a commercial product? The release last September resulted in a DLL hell and a support nightmare. After that we were promised smoother sailing ahead. Now with the April release we're told that ALL clients who buy our product must have an XHTML compliant skin? I still can't believe I'm hearing you correctly. This requirement can work for custom, one-off or in-house development, but only a few percentage of existing DNN skins are XHTML compliant. Are you telling me this few percentage is now my "updated" potential client base? Why would you make a decision to push technology to the point where you are now compatible with only a few percentage of the client base?
We can tell our clients they have to upgrade to DNN 4.9+. That is not a problem. However, we cannot tell them all to buy a new skin and completely redo their corporate image, or pay $500 to a skin designer to custom upgrade their existing skin (this does not including the internal costs to manage) . When you say "We are ready to help you with your product and upgrade to XHTML-compliant mode (the current default for DNN). Just send us a support ticket and we will assist." does this mean you are going to provide the support to upgrade all of our client's skins as well?
Perhaps I am off track (I hope so). Does "help with your product" mean we can simply put more hours into "upgrading" our application? Or is the reality that the Rad control set now require XHTML skins and the issue at hand is not really "our product".
If it is true that all of our clients now require an XHTML skin then there is not an easy fix and your team has not found a balance. They have left commercial product developers in a bind and it appears that RadControls are only a viable option for "in-house" custom development where the developers have complete control over their environment, skin, /bin directory, etc.
Please let us know if the RadControl set does, in fact, requirs XHTML doctype skins. We need to know this so that we can understand how to proceed.
We've produced some great web 2.0 functionality with your controls and by customizing some of them. Our clients have been very impressed. We have a nice product that is ready to go to market. We have a top rung reseller lined up, professional documentation, training videos, etc. Let me know if you'd like a tour sometime.
Thanks,
Chris
I've developed software over the last 30 years and I understand the balance between moving ahead and maintaining backwards compatibility. Your team has consistently provided helpful and cheerful support. All of this I appreciate.
What I don't understand is how can we, or any other development team, utilize the RadControls in a commercial product? The release last September resulted in a DLL hell and a support nightmare. After that we were promised smoother sailing ahead. Now with the April release we're told that ALL clients who buy our product must have an XHTML compliant skin? I still can't believe I'm hearing you correctly. This requirement can work for custom, one-off or in-house development, but only a few percentage of existing DNN skins are XHTML compliant. Are you telling me this few percentage is now my "updated" potential client base? Why would you make a decision to push technology to the point where you are now compatible with only a few percentage of the client base?
We can tell our clients they have to upgrade to DNN 4.9+. That is not a problem. However, we cannot tell them all to buy a new skin and completely redo their corporate image, or pay $500 to a skin designer to custom upgrade their existing skin (this does not including the internal costs to manage) . When you say "We are ready to help you with your product and upgrade to XHTML-compliant mode (the current default for DNN). Just send us a support ticket and we will assist." does this mean you are going to provide the support to upgrade all of our client's skins as well?
Perhaps I am off track (I hope so). Does "help with your product" mean we can simply put more hours into "upgrading" our application? Or is the reality that the Rad control set now require XHTML skins and the issue at hand is not really "our product".
If it is true that all of our clients now require an XHTML skin then there is not an easy fix and your team has not found a balance. They have left commercial product developers in a bind and it appears that RadControls are only a viable option for "in-house" custom development where the developers have complete control over their environment, skin, /bin directory, etc.
Please let us know if the RadControl set does, in fact, requirs XHTML doctype skins. We need to know this so that we can understand how to proceed.
We've produced some great web 2.0 functionality with your controls and by customizing some of them. Our clients have been very impressed. We have a nice product that is ready to go to market. We have a top rung reseller lined up, professional documentation, training videos, etc. Let me know if you'd like a tour sometime.
Thanks,
Chris
0
Hi Chris,
Thank you for the additional details. I truly understand your position and, for what it’s worth, I sympathize to you and your team.
As you mentioned the market of software development requires constant battle with tradeoffs, and we are facing many every day. Following the principle of the greater good sometimes we have to make decisions that hurt in a very bad way people/companies like you. We are however, equally dedicated to helping customers, not just building and selling DLL’s. So in this case as well we will try to be constructive and see what can be done in an obviously difficult situation.
Most of the websites and applications developed now with RadControls are in XHTML mode (not only DNN-based but any websites/applications). That is why our main focus is to provide perfect support for XHTML doctype (which is also the current default in DNN and more and more people will be using it). That being said we are always improving the support for non-XHTML mode as well. We are fixing a lot of issues and we will be researching for solutions to the specific problems you have experienced. Unfortunately, there are some limitations which are not easy to workaround in non-XHTML mode for all of our 30 or so controls. Add those to the numerous global styles in the DNN framework that override some of RadControls styles and there is a big potential for glitches and inconsistencies.
We will contact you to further pinpoint and categorize problems. Then see if we can work around some or all of them. If this doesn’t work let’s discuss how many are your customers, how many skins do you have so we can estimate the amount of work to be done. If the only viable option is for you to move to XHTML doctype ,we will do our best to help you port some of your customers’ skins, although we can’t do them all (I hope you understand).
We are always excited to promote any product built with RadControls and will be happy to take a tour of your implementation and expose it to Telerik community. We have a number of specific ideas how this can be done on telerik.com and associated vehicles. We enjoy serious traffic and hopefully we will be able to compensate you with some new business. Let’s discuss this again in private.
Best Regards,
Ivo
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Thank you for the additional details. I truly understand your position and, for what it’s worth, I sympathize to you and your team.
As you mentioned the market of software development requires constant battle with tradeoffs, and we are facing many every day. Following the principle of the greater good sometimes we have to make decisions that hurt in a very bad way people/companies like you. We are however, equally dedicated to helping customers, not just building and selling DLL’s. So in this case as well we will try to be constructive and see what can be done in an obviously difficult situation.
Most of the websites and applications developed now with RadControls are in XHTML mode (not only DNN-based but any websites/applications). That is why our main focus is to provide perfect support for XHTML doctype (which is also the current default in DNN and more and more people will be using it). That being said we are always improving the support for non-XHTML mode as well. We are fixing a lot of issues and we will be researching for solutions to the specific problems you have experienced. Unfortunately, there are some limitations which are not easy to workaround in non-XHTML mode for all of our 30 or so controls. Add those to the numerous global styles in the DNN framework that override some of RadControls styles and there is a big potential for glitches and inconsistencies.
We will contact you to further pinpoint and categorize problems. Then see if we can work around some or all of them. If this doesn’t work let’s discuss how many are your customers, how many skins do you have so we can estimate the amount of work to be done. If the only viable option is for you to move to XHTML doctype ,we will do our best to help you port some of your customers’ skins, although we can’t do them all (I hope you understand).
We are always excited to promote any product built with RadControls and will be happy to take a tour of your implementation and expose it to Telerik community. We have a number of specific ideas how this can be done on telerik.com and associated vehicles. We enjoy serious traffic and hopefully we will be able to compensate you with some new business. Let’s discuss this again in private.
Best Regards,
Ivo
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Javier Rodríguez
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answered on 21 May 2009, 03:15 PM
Hi Ivo,
Thanks for the considerate reply. I realize XHMTL is the
way things are moving and its good to be ahead of the game even though we have
to support legacy technology. I just wish technology would slow down a bit ;-)
Your support team has always been very helpful and courteous. We'll follow up with them if problems with our LMS or specific clients arise.
Thanks,
Chris
Your support team has always been very helpful and courteous. We'll follow up with them if problems with our LMS or specific clients arise.
Thanks,
Chris
0
Hello Chris,
Thank you for the nice words about our support team.
We will keep in touch and do our best to quickly resolve any problems you submit through support tickets.
Good luck with your new LMS product -- we will be happy to help you promote it.
Sincerely yours,
Ivo
the Telerik team
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Thank you for the nice words about our support team.
We will keep in touch and do our best to quickly resolve any problems you submit through support tickets.
Good luck with your new LMS product -- we will be happy to help you promote it.
Sincerely yours,
Ivo
the Telerik team
Instantly find answers to your questions on the new Telerik Support Portal.
Check out the tips for optimizing your support resource searches.