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Like others I've been caught off-guard by the new Platform. I collaborate with other Telerik users and we've shared similar thoughts, some of which have already been expressed in this forum but I'll itemize for completeness.
- Now that we understand where RadControls/DevCraft/UI fits, we're OK. It took a while to get there.
- Concerned about a shift from Visual Studio to a new IDE. Despite marketing reassuring us to the contrary, we're going to be wanting for a number of features and can only hope Telerik responds quickly enough.
- Too new to recommend for new development, and yet this seems like the ideal platform. That's a very frustrating position to be in. We want to start using it but fear the ramifications.
- As with any new tech, the best approach to a new project with this would be to not make commitments based on deadlines. If we commit to functionality by a given date, and Telerik can't help us to deliver, people will be unhappy. To eliminate that, develop first, and when it works, tell people what's already there. But don't make any promises for the future.
- Here's yet another platform that's going to vie for our time, like Silverlight, MVC, HTML5, each of the mobile OS's, and every one of the frameworks that "simplify" development. We've been down this path before and it's dark. Xamarin, PhoneGap, and other tools all have their issues and concerns and we're going to need to figure out the new concerns for the Telerik Platform as fast as possible so that we can see where it fits, and not. I really hope Telerik will provide technical marketing materials to get us over the humps quickly so that we don't need to struggle in the school of hard knocks like we do everywhere else. We've done this too many times and it's tough to buy into yet another "does everything" platform - even for those of us who love Telerik and everything they produce.
- Not sure how our existing code fits with the new platform. We have Business and Data access classes for our own data sources. How do we call these functions within the platform framework? Do we host these components and call them via web services? So a mobile client will be calling to Telerik's servers for analytics and the other value-add features, And to our servers for rules? We can deal with that. But we can't limit our development to only the languages, database models, and services that Telerik provides or certifies.
- There needs to be more separation of user roles in access to projects. Managers should view analytics from a live app, not all developers. A software house will write software for an end-user. Each entity needs access to code, analytics, etc. We need to work out situations where one party writes an app for ad
revenue, and passes the app to someone else for analytics and other ownership/management rights. We need to be able to clone or share code or projects between accounts. - People are uptight about "single point of failure" with Telerik servers and Telerik as a business entity. It's not that we don't trust the company but that it's traumatic for any company to put it's complete faith in any other company, especially for a new platform. And with cloud solutions, shared hosts, email providers, and other SOA/SaaS, people are used to this kind of thing now, whether they realize it or not, but they need to be re-sold on it with every new opportunity. In addition to selling our offerings we now need to convince our clients that it's a good balance to accept this relationship as a price for cross-platform development - oh yes, and the actual price too. And as resellers, or at least entities that recommend technology, we need to indemnify ourselves against failures of the platform in development and production.
- How many projects do we get per account? What happens to projects that we put on hold? How do we ensure that we have control over our IP?
- What about companies or government agencies that need more control over their source, or where open sourcing or public domain is a requirement? We need to work out if and how we can sell apps into these sector which are dependent upon Telerik and it's "closed" (?) silo.
- Not sure off-hand if Kendo UI comes with the Platform. As DevCraft/UI subscribers we're now wondering if we need to subscribe to the platform And purchase Kendo licenses? This whole area is still a bit confusing. The Platform is used with HTML5. For hybrid/native apps we're assuming we need other for-fee components, and not sure how much non-Telerik technology we can bring to bear on Platform-hosted projects. So what are the requirements, the options, and the costs for various development scenarios?
- We're eager to get started but note a number of features that will go production sometime in 2014. That's great but that means we can't commit to many projects in 2014 using the Platform, until we see those features go production and then go through the first few bug/fix releases.
- And I'm confused about what I read here about Visual Studio Ultimate. Most serious .NET developers I know have Professional, v2010, v2012, and/or v2013. What are the requirements for the VS addins?
We could be basing a lot of our concerns on misconceptions. Please help us to understand and navigate this new ecosystem so that we can make good decisions quickly. Thanks.
3 Answers, 1 is accepted
0
Hi Tony!
First, thanks A LOT for taking the time to share your thoughts, feedback, and concerns, and thanks for being a loyal Telerik customer. We know big changes like this are bound to create a lot of questions, and we're going to be working hard to answer them and continue to earn your trust.
I want to be sure I don't miss any of your questions, so let me respond to each (paraphrased):
Q: Is Telerik shifting from Visual Studio to a new IDE?
No. Telerik remains fully committed to the Visual Studio developer, and we are aggressively building Visual Studio integrations that enable developers to use all Telerik tools and services (including the new Telerik Platform) without leaving VS. Today you can find VS integrations for services like Telerik AppBuilder and most of the Telerik UI tools (among many integrations we offer). Through 2014, you'll see us continue to enrich and extend our integrated VS story.
Meanwhile, as Telerik expands to serve developers beyond .NET, we want to ensure our tools and services are equally accessible to these audiences. That is why you see us also investing in alternate IDEs and IDE integrations. We're also building-out complete command line APIs to unlock virtually any integration scenario. Our goal is to make it easy to integrate Telerik in to any developer workflow, regardless of IDE.
Q: Is the Telerik Platform ready for "real" development?
Much of this first Telerik Platform release has been about bringing together a number of Telerik products that have all previously been "islands" of functionality. Said to say, while this is the first "Telerik Platform" release, the core products that make up the Platform already have solid time on the market, meaning they're not your typical v1 products. The Telerik Platform is robust and ready for "real" development, and is already being used by many of our customers around the globe.
Q: Is this YAP (yet another platform)? Isn't this just like Silverlight, HTML5, and the rest?
We actually think the Telerik Platform is quite different than these other examples. We are not introducing a new proprietary way to do your development. Instead, we're embracing the key ways your development is already done (like WPF for desktop, HTML5 for the web, and perhaps PhoneGap for mobile) and giving you a complete Platform with the tools and services you need to be productive regardless of approach or screen. In a sense, it's the first Platform NOT designed to lock you in to a specific approach. We're putting the power of choice back in the hands of the developer.
Today we support development for apps using: WinForms, WPF, Silverlight, Windows 8, ASP.NET, ASP.NET MVC, PHP, Java JSP, Apache Cordova (PhoneGap), Windows Phone, iOS (Objective C), Android (Java), and virtually anywhere else you can use JavaScript/HTML5. Our Analytics even offers monitors for C++ and COM projects!
Q: How do we deal with our existing code and assets?
Good question! Of course, the short answer is, it depends. :) More specifically, it depends on the kind of development you're doing with the Telerik Platform.
Remember, we're not prescribing a new way to build your apps. We're giving you the integrated tools and services you need to build better apps more productively. SO, let's say you're building a ASP.NET MVC web app. What does the Telerik Platform give you? You can use Telerik UI for ASP.NET MVC (Kendo UI) to build a powerful application UI, Telerik Backend Services to expose data to your app (if you want it), Telerik Analytics to add powerful application analytics to your project, and all of your existing .NET project assets/code.
The more of the Telerik Platform you use, the more benefits we can unlock. But you can easily pick and choose just the pieces you need and integrate them with your existing code and workflows.
Q: You need more roles in the Telerik Platform.
This is great feedback. These are definitely scenarios we've discussed (different views of the Platform for different people), and with your feedback we'll focus on lighting-up the roles and Platform workflows that are most important to you, our customers.
Q: How do we deal with Telerik as a single point of failure?
We know it's a big deal whenever someone uses our products to power their business, and we take that responsibility very seriously. Whether it's our UI tools or our new cloud services, we know many people stake their own reputations on Telerik.
To that end, SLAs are available for the new Platform cloud services, and we'll soon deliver complete support for Virtual Private Cloud and On Premise Telerik Platform deployments (letting you take Telerik completely out of the run-time equation if you prefer). We hope these options make the Telerik Platform a reliable and usable solution for many scenarios.
Q: How many projects do we get per account?
Other than the free Telerik Platform Starter edition, you get unlimited projects per account. With the Starter edition, you get 2 projects per service (so, 2 for AppBuilder, 2 for Backend Services, etc).
Q: How do we maintain control over our IP? What if we need more control over our source?
No problem. While Telerik does offer convenient cloud source control for Telerik AppBuilder projects (specifically), you can easily opt to use your own source control and maintain complete control over your code at all times. For things like Telerik Analytics and Telerik Backend Services, if complete control over the data in these systems is essential, our On Premise and Virtual Private Cloud deployments are going to be the right choice.
Q: Does Kendo UI come with the Telerik Platform? How about other UI widgets?
Kendo UI Mobile is now included for free in all Telerik Platform subscriptions (including the free Starter edition)! Kendo UI Web and DataViz are available in Telerik Platform Business, and the Kendo UI server wrappers (now "Telerik UI for ASP.NET MVC" or "Telerik UI for PHP") are available in the top-end Telerik Platform subscription.
A few products, including Kendo UI, are available in both DevCraft and Telerik Platform purchases. For the most part, though, DevCraft includes Telerik's rich collection of .NET development tools for desktop and web apps, while the Telerik Platform includes our tools for mobile (including the new native UI widgets) and modern web development. We know this is still a bit confusing, and we hope to further streamline these options in 2014.
If you're a developer looking to have everything Telerik offers today for desktop, web, and mobile development, a Telerik DevCraft purchase + Telerik Platform subscription is the right choice. Contact our sales team (sales@telerik.com) and we'll be happy to help further figure-out what's best for you.
Above all, because we're embracing modularity, all of Telerik's tools and services are still available a la carte. So if you just want Telerik AppBuilder or you just want Kendo UI, you can still buy just what you need.
Q: We can't use the Platform today because of pending 2014 features.
We'd love to know which missing features or bug fixes are blocking your adoption! Clearly, we know we've got lots of work to do, and we're still moving at full speed to enhance all of the products you depend on from Telerik. Literally hundreds of engineers are working everyday to make the Telerik Platform better.
Just to set some expectations, we'll deliver major new features in our cloud services every 6 to 8 weeks, and we'll continue to update our UI tools with major releases roughly 16 weeks apart.
Q: Which versions of Visual Studio do you support?
For the most part, our Visual Studio integrations work in VS 2010, 2012, and 2013. There are a few different VS extensions available from Telerik today, so some of the requirements may differ, but our current commitment for the Telerik Platform is to support these major versions.
--
Hopefully some of this helps! I'm sure it doesn't clear-up all of the questions, and we'll work hard over the days and weeks ahead to continue to dive in to the Telerik Platform and unpack all of the things you can do with it.
Ultimately, the most important take away is that the Telerik Platform is designed to blend in to your existing workflows and development. We don't want to displace everything you love. We just want to make the hard parts of software development easier.
-Todd
First, thanks A LOT for taking the time to share your thoughts, feedback, and concerns, and thanks for being a loyal Telerik customer. We know big changes like this are bound to create a lot of questions, and we're going to be working hard to answer them and continue to earn your trust.
I want to be sure I don't miss any of your questions, so let me respond to each (paraphrased):
Q: Is Telerik shifting from Visual Studio to a new IDE?
No. Telerik remains fully committed to the Visual Studio developer, and we are aggressively building Visual Studio integrations that enable developers to use all Telerik tools and services (including the new Telerik Platform) without leaving VS. Today you can find VS integrations for services like Telerik AppBuilder and most of the Telerik UI tools (among many integrations we offer). Through 2014, you'll see us continue to enrich and extend our integrated VS story.
Meanwhile, as Telerik expands to serve developers beyond .NET, we want to ensure our tools and services are equally accessible to these audiences. That is why you see us also investing in alternate IDEs and IDE integrations. We're also building-out complete command line APIs to unlock virtually any integration scenario. Our goal is to make it easy to integrate Telerik in to any developer workflow, regardless of IDE.
Q: Is the Telerik Platform ready for "real" development?
Much of this first Telerik Platform release has been about bringing together a number of Telerik products that have all previously been "islands" of functionality. Said to say, while this is the first "Telerik Platform" release, the core products that make up the Platform already have solid time on the market, meaning they're not your typical v1 products. The Telerik Platform is robust and ready for "real" development, and is already being used by many of our customers around the globe.
Q: Is this YAP (yet another platform)? Isn't this just like Silverlight, HTML5, and the rest?
We actually think the Telerik Platform is quite different than these other examples. We are not introducing a new proprietary way to do your development. Instead, we're embracing the key ways your development is already done (like WPF for desktop, HTML5 for the web, and perhaps PhoneGap for mobile) and giving you a complete Platform with the tools and services you need to be productive regardless of approach or screen. In a sense, it's the first Platform NOT designed to lock you in to a specific approach. We're putting the power of choice back in the hands of the developer.
Today we support development for apps using: WinForms, WPF, Silverlight, Windows 8, ASP.NET, ASP.NET MVC, PHP, Java JSP, Apache Cordova (PhoneGap), Windows Phone, iOS (Objective C), Android (Java), and virtually anywhere else you can use JavaScript/HTML5. Our Analytics even offers monitors for C++ and COM projects!
Q: How do we deal with our existing code and assets?
Good question! Of course, the short answer is, it depends. :) More specifically, it depends on the kind of development you're doing with the Telerik Platform.
Remember, we're not prescribing a new way to build your apps. We're giving you the integrated tools and services you need to build better apps more productively. SO, let's say you're building a ASP.NET MVC web app. What does the Telerik Platform give you? You can use Telerik UI for ASP.NET MVC (Kendo UI) to build a powerful application UI, Telerik Backend Services to expose data to your app (if you want it), Telerik Analytics to add powerful application analytics to your project, and all of your existing .NET project assets/code.
The more of the Telerik Platform you use, the more benefits we can unlock. But you can easily pick and choose just the pieces you need and integrate them with your existing code and workflows.
Q: You need more roles in the Telerik Platform.
This is great feedback. These are definitely scenarios we've discussed (different views of the Platform for different people), and with your feedback we'll focus on lighting-up the roles and Platform workflows that are most important to you, our customers.
Q: How do we deal with Telerik as a single point of failure?
We know it's a big deal whenever someone uses our products to power their business, and we take that responsibility very seriously. Whether it's our UI tools or our new cloud services, we know many people stake their own reputations on Telerik.
To that end, SLAs are available for the new Platform cloud services, and we'll soon deliver complete support for Virtual Private Cloud and On Premise Telerik Platform deployments (letting you take Telerik completely out of the run-time equation if you prefer). We hope these options make the Telerik Platform a reliable and usable solution for many scenarios.
Q: How many projects do we get per account?
Other than the free Telerik Platform Starter edition, you get unlimited projects per account. With the Starter edition, you get 2 projects per service (so, 2 for AppBuilder, 2 for Backend Services, etc).
Q: How do we maintain control over our IP? What if we need more control over our source?
No problem. While Telerik does offer convenient cloud source control for Telerik AppBuilder projects (specifically), you can easily opt to use your own source control and maintain complete control over your code at all times. For things like Telerik Analytics and Telerik Backend Services, if complete control over the data in these systems is essential, our On Premise and Virtual Private Cloud deployments are going to be the right choice.
Q: Does Kendo UI come with the Telerik Platform? How about other UI widgets?
Kendo UI Mobile is now included for free in all Telerik Platform subscriptions (including the free Starter edition)! Kendo UI Web and DataViz are available in Telerik Platform Business, and the Kendo UI server wrappers (now "Telerik UI for ASP.NET MVC" or "Telerik UI for PHP") are available in the top-end Telerik Platform subscription.
A few products, including Kendo UI, are available in both DevCraft and Telerik Platform purchases. For the most part, though, DevCraft includes Telerik's rich collection of .NET development tools for desktop and web apps, while the Telerik Platform includes our tools for mobile (including the new native UI widgets) and modern web development. We know this is still a bit confusing, and we hope to further streamline these options in 2014.
If you're a developer looking to have everything Telerik offers today for desktop, web, and mobile development, a Telerik DevCraft purchase + Telerik Platform subscription is the right choice. Contact our sales team (sales@telerik.com) and we'll be happy to help further figure-out what's best for you.
Above all, because we're embracing modularity, all of Telerik's tools and services are still available a la carte. So if you just want Telerik AppBuilder or you just want Kendo UI, you can still buy just what you need.
Q: We can't use the Platform today because of pending 2014 features.
We'd love to know which missing features or bug fixes are blocking your adoption! Clearly, we know we've got lots of work to do, and we're still moving at full speed to enhance all of the products you depend on from Telerik. Literally hundreds of engineers are working everyday to make the Telerik Platform better.
Just to set some expectations, we'll deliver major new features in our cloud services every 6 to 8 weeks, and we'll continue to update our UI tools with major releases roughly 16 weeks apart.
For the most part, our Visual Studio integrations work in VS 2010, 2012, and 2013. There are a few different VS extensions available from Telerik today, so some of the requirements may differ, but our current commitment for the Telerik Platform is to support these major versions.
--
Hopefully some of this helps! I'm sure it doesn't clear-up all of the questions, and we'll work hard over the days and weeks ahead to continue to dive in to the Telerik Platform and unpack all of the things you can do with it.
Ultimately, the most important take away is that the Telerik Platform is designed to blend in to your existing workflows and development. We don't want to displace everything you love. We just want to make the hard parts of software development easier.
-Todd
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TonyG
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answered on 22 Feb 2014, 07:12 PM
Thanks for your time on that, Todd. It does help.
Only missed one...
#13: Visual Studio Ultimate ?
Only missed one...
#13: Visual Studio Ultimate ?
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Todd
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answered on 24 Feb 2014, 09:05 PM
Glad it helped!
As for the Telerik VS addins, they should work in any version of Visual Studio that supports addins, which includes Pro and Ultimate. Some versions, like VS Express, do not support addins, so those versions are obviously not supported.
Let me know if you have any trouble installing or using the addins in VS Professional and I'll investigate.
As for the Telerik VS addins, they should work in any version of Visual Studio that supports addins, which includes Pro and Ultimate. Some versions, like VS Express, do not support addins, so those versions are obviously not supported.
Let me know if you have any trouble installing or using the addins in VS Professional and I'll investigate.