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In this week's podcast, Ed and Brian cover the latest news in the development community including: Bootstrap 4 finally makes its official debut, Boston Dynamics shows us our new robotic overlords, and Microsoft announces Build 2018.

Bootstrap 4 is finally out after years of alpha - beta releases. What's new and what should you expect from the latest bits?

Boston Dynamics showed a video of robots of helping each other navigate difficult obstacles. The robots are capable of opening doors for each other.

Microsoft announces Build 2018. What do we expect from this power house of tech? Eat Sleep Code will be there to deliver the news.

Listen to the Podcast


Show Notes

Transcript

Don't have time to listen to the whole thing, or just prefer to read your podcasts? We've got the full transcript for you below.

00:18 Ed Charbeneau: Hello and welcome to Eat Sleep Code, the official Telerik podcast. I'm your host Ed Charbeneau and with me today is my co-host Brian Rinaldi. Brian, welcome back.

 

00:27 Brian Rinaldi: Thanks, Ed, it's been too long.

 

00:30 EC: I know, we both got busy again and didn't get an opportunity to record for a couple weeks.

 

00:36 BR: I thought it was just because nothing really happened in the tech industry in the past month.

 

00:41 EC: Yeah, that or I've had a phone call or two saying, "I need you on this project immediately, drop everything else." [laughter] So yeah, I've been pretty busy, but good news is I've got a queue of folks lined up to record again, so we should be coming back with frequent shows every week, as scheduled. A matter of fact, I got news this week that I'll be able to record as an official podcaster at Build, so usually I'm at Microsoft Build but I try to grab people on the side and do a recording here and there, but it looks like I'll have a designated spot at the event where we'll have people being ushered in and recording all day long, so that's good news that'll generate a lot of shows when Build is happening. We'll have a lot of frequent updates from the show there.

 

01:44 BR: Sounds great.

 

01:45 EC: Awesome news.

 

01:46 BR: That's good for me 'cause I won't be there, so...

 

01:50 EC: You can keep up to date by following the show at SoundCloud, the Eat Sleep Code podcast on SoundCloud or iTunes or your favorite pod catching application. So sorry you can't be there with me in person, Brian, but you can always stay up to date by listening in.

 

02:08 BR: I will.

 

02:11 EC: Speaking of Build, the tickets went on sale yesterday.

 

02:15 BR: Have they all gone already?

 

02:18 EC: They probably are, even at the whopping price of $2,500. That's expensive.

 

02:25 BR: It's really too bad that the company makes you pay for that personally.

 

[laughter]

 

02:30 EC: Yeah, that's depending on what your role is, some people do pay this out-of-pocket by the way.

 

02:37 BR: Of course.

 

02:40 EC: If that's something you're paying for out of pocket then I hope you get the most and best out of every penny you spend. There is a lot to do there. Last year was really a step in the right direction, it was well-organized, the sessions were easy to get into, there was a lot going on the exhibition floor, there was a lot of HoloLens interactive experiences and stuff. It was really cool, so if you did spend your own money, make the most of it. Otherwise, it probably decimated a bunch of training budgets, I'm assuming, at $2,500 a pop. But you do get to go to Seattle and drink lots and lots of Starbucks, get wired up and check out whatever cool technology Microsoft's talking about. So any predictions, Brian? Any ideas what they might drop at Build?

 

03:41 BR: No, I don't have any predictions whatsoever. I was just thinking like maybe the HoloLens needs a new name, is what they need. 'Cause it sounds like it's a lens with nothing inside it, instead of a holographic lens. When you said it, I was like sitting there thinking like, what... For a second, my mind went, "Hollow lens," like...

 

04:04 EC: The empty lens.

 

04:06 BR: Yeah, and then I'm like, "Oh wait, no. Holo. Yeah." I'm used to reading it, not saying it.

 

04:14 EC: I'm going to expect that we see more mixed reality stuff, whether it's HoloLens... Hopefully, and this is something I would just hope for, I hope there's a new version of the HoloLens just because it hasn't had a significant hardware refresh in a while. It was a really forward-thinking device, it was ahead of the industry for quite a while. I think there's been a few other products that have kind of caught up a little bit. There's still nothing quite like it. If you haven't tried one, you might not know what I mean by that, but if you've had one on and experienced it, there's nothing really quite like it on the market right now.

 

04:58 BR: Yeah, I've tried it out but this was even a couple years ago. It would be nice... I thought it was really cool. The field of vision issues were one of the only kind of difficulties I found. I don't know if you've had the same, like especially when you're... They had me play a game and that was an issue at least with that model. I don't know if they've changed that at all.

 

05:21 EC: Yeah, so basically, you've got what is roughly the size of maybe between an index card and a business card sized square in front of you that you can see through. If you look at the HoloLens from an external point of view, whether you see somebody with it on or you see video of it, it looks like you have this complete in-depth experience, which it's not, so yeah, that is definitely an issue.

 

05:52 BR: Yeah, especially given the size of the thing. I mean, it was huge.

 

05:57 EC: Yeah, it's big in that it looks like a pair of driving glasses that retirees use.

 

06:07 BR: Yeah.

 

06:09 EC: For lack of a better comparison, that's kinda the effect that these have.

 

06:13 BR: Or like the ones they give you when they dilate your eyes.

 

06:18 EC: Yeah. So I mean, it's kind of like a windshield for your face.

 

06:22 BR: Yeah. [chuckle]

 

06:22 EC: But in the same respect, it's not heavy, it's not a heavy piece of equipment, it weighs less than a pound and it has something like a Core i5 or i7 in it, some pretty high-end processor in it. And it also has a custom piece of hardware in it that does real-time machine learning on spatial data, so it's like [chuckle] some high tech stuff on your face. Plus battery power for quite a while, the battery really holds up on that thing, so it's pretty advanced but...

 

06:57 BR: Yeah.

 

06:57 EC: With any kind of tech thing if it doesn't get some kinda bump in specs, tech people and developers look at it like, "Oh, that's old." Even though it's like five years before its time, it doesn't matter to us, we're like, "Yeah, that's the old thing, we need a refresh of it."

 

07:13 BR: Yeah. I would say, my guess is, not being somebody who's ever been to this event actually, I would love to, but never been, it's gonna be a whole lot of Azure.

 

07:32 EC: Yeah, I think that can be expected.

 

07:34 BR: Yeah.

 

07:34 EC: I think Windows is kind of on the trailing edge of their revenue sources and Azure is gonna be the next generation of Microsoft as far as where they earn their paychecks, so...

 

07:51 BR: Yeah.

 

07:52 EC: Yeah, I wouldn't doubt we'll see a lot of Azure in there. But I don't think we'll see any Windows phones.

 

[laughter]

 

08:00 EC: That one's off the table.

 

08:01 BR: Well, there was gonna be the... They finally did cancel that, the Surface phone, right?

 

08:08 EC: They did, yes.

 

08:10 BR: As far as I know.

 

08:10 EC: Yeah, I think that may be official. They've tried really hard to integrate with Android phones, so there's a launcher that you can install and it has a middle service that kinda keeps your Windows 10 PC and your phone kinda in sync with apps that you've opened and messages you've sent and received, stuff like that. I think they call it Microsoft Graph, we'll probably hear more about that again this year, whatever the next iteration of it is. So that'll be interesting. But for the main takeaway, for everybody, we'll have podcasts coming out of that event as soon as we can get them recorded and turn them around so you guys can keep up with the show if you're not there yourself. And you can save a whole lot of money by just listening [chuckle] to the podcast rather than paying 2,500 bucks.

 

09:05 BR: Well, my suspicion if they don't have the ticket already, that's gonna be their best option. [chuckle]

 

09:10 EC: Yeah. [chuckle] In other news, we're moving our show. We're still gonna be on SoundCloud, you can still find us on iTunes and all of the places that you catch podcasts, but as far as posting show notes and developer episodes, we're moving that from developer.telerik.com to Telerik.com/blogs or blogs.telerik.com. Both of those URLs will get you there. Reason for that, we're just consolidating some of our blog technologies and outlets into one place so that things are easier to find and you don't have to jump around from different Telerik properties to find our articles and stuff, so that consolidation's in the process right now. We'll probably have something going next week, or you can find stuff at Telerik.com/blogs and catch up with the show there. And... I don't have any public events to talk about. I'm going to the Microsoft MVP Summit, and then I have a local event here at Louisville called Code PaLOUsa. Brian, you going anywhere? Doing any talks or anything soon?

 

10:36 BR: The only thing I've got upcoming is in June, at Fluent Conference, and...

 

10:40 EC: Fluent Conf.

 

10:41 BR: Yeah, San Jose, which I'm excited to be back at. I had literally spoken at every Fluent until last year. I had to take the last year off but now I'm back. So, I'm gonna start a new... Hopefully, start a new record of continuing to speak there every year 'cause it's one of my favorites.

 

11:06 EC: What kind of topics do they cover at Fluent?

 

11:09 BR: It's mostly web. We started out as a JavaScript-focused conference but now it's kind of broadened out to topics like web, and they actually co-locate with O'Reilly's performance conference, so they're both going on I think at the same time or kind of concurrently on some level. So there's even performance topics and stuff like that, so it's just a web-focused conference.

 

11:39 EC: Nice. And I imagine you have to fly to get to some of these conferences, so... I know I do. I don't normally...

 

11:46 BR: Well, I'm just gonna walk to Paulo... Not Paulo, to San Jose, but... So I'm starting tomorrow. I'll be there in June.

 

11:54 EC: I don't... [laughter] Do the Forrest Gump routine.

 

[laughter]

 

12:00 EC: Just keep running until you get there. [chuckle] Oh, man. So, I don't normally have a fear of flying, I'm pretty stable in the sky, I don't get too antsy, and I don't mind. I actually enjoy flying, for the most part. But yeah, something caught my eye in the news the other day, this thing was trending on social media pretty hard. Like, "United loses the cover for one of its engines from Honolulu to San Francisco." And it's like...

 

12:32 BR: Yeah.

 

12:33 EC: The technology we have today, you're the guy on the window seat above the wing, and you look out the wing and the engine's literally coming apart before your eyes. So what do you do besides pull out your phone and start tweeting it?

 

12:50 BR: You shared that with me. Oh my God, that was scary looking. I'm very grateful that I was not on that plane, 'cause I would have been freaking out.

 

13:01 EC: Yeah. Thankfully, everybody got landed safely, and nobody was injured or anything. But the video from that... It's pretty compelling, man. The whole plane was just shaking like a paint shaker, because it's just unstable with all that shroud missing from the engine. But the pilots managed to hold that thing together and get it to the ground pretty safely, so it's quite the effort to make sure that plane stays stable when you got that much drag hitting one of the wings.

 

13:40 BR: Yeah.

 

13:41 EC: And then you've got people reporting live from inside the flight and stuff, it's scary.

 

13:46 BR: Yeah, yeah, no kidding. That looked terrifying. It makes me glad that I'm not flying anywhere for just a little bit, so I can forget it.

 

14:00 EC: All that because somebody didn't put their device on airplane mode.

 

14:03 BR: Yeah, pretty much. Their large... Their laptop, right? Isn't that what you have to...

 

14:10 EC: Yeah. I blame Samsung, right? [chuckle]

 

14:13 BR: Yeah, that was Samsung Note 8, or whatever? Note 7. Note 7 got caught in the engine.

 

14:22 EC: There you go. [chuckle] We actually had that happen, not literally, but in Louisville here, where I'm from, one of the planes got grounded because one of those Note 8s caught fire inside the cabin before liftoff.

 

[chuckle]

 

14:34 BR: Jeez.

 

14:36 EC: So that's where the sarcasm was coming from, we've been there, done that in our airport. Anyway, let's move onto some real news. This is actually a couple weeks ago, but is still very relevant considering the amount of time it took to come to fruition, but Bootstrap 4 is finally officially released.

 

15:00 BR: Yeah.

 

15:01 EC: After, what? Two years, or something like that, of alpha/beta development?

 

15:05 BR: I think there was some people starting to claim it was never gonna happen.

 

15:08 EC: Yeah, it was like the Half Life 3 of web development.

 

[chuckle]

 

15:12 BR: Yeah. So, it's finally out. And what do you think? Are you impressed? Or...

 

15:19 EC: I've been using it as a beta for quite a while, and I'm not quite sure what the change was between the last beta and the official release. I haven't kept up on the release notes that tightly. But I've used it pretty extensively over the last year, and it seems to be pretty stable. It's not something that if you're using Bootstrap 3 and you're really happy with it, that you absolutely have to jump aboard, 'cause it's not that different, as far as I can tell. It's more of a refreshing of Bootstrap to make it more current. There's things in there like Flexbox, alternative grid layouts for Flexbox, and you can switch that on or off as you please. It's built on Sass officially this time. So, last time it was built on LESS, and then there was a option to use Sass. So there was like a cross-compiled version, or a ported version of Sass that you could use. So now that it's officially built using Sass, that's a nice feature to have.

 

16:37 BR: Yeah.

 

16:37 EC: Because that lets you get in there and turn things on and off ad-hoc from your code, rather than go use some kind of customization tool online, and download minified files or whatever that process was before.

 

16:54 BR: Cool.

 

16:55 EC: Have you got to check anything out with it?

 

16:56 BR: No, I have not. Most of the stuff that I'm building, I'm more focused on the JavaScript portion than the UI portion, so ugliness ensues. [chuckle]

 

17:12 EC: You're using, what? MooTools and YUI?

 

17:15 BR: Yes.

 

17:16 EC: There you go.

 

17:17 BR: Yeah, I'm still on MooTools.

 

[chuckle]

 

17:23 BR: Nothing since has compared.

 

17:26 EC: Using some Kendo UI, I hope.

 

[chuckle]

 

17:29 BR: There's not much UI to this stuff I'm building, honest to God. It's like I'm showing you how to do logins and call... Connect to a SQL database behind your firewall using Convey kind of thing. So none of this is like... Just not a lot of UI to it, it's mostly just... In my case, JavaScripted.

 

17:53 EC: Backend, single sign on.

 

17:55 BR: Yep.

 

17:56 EC: Alright. So, they changed a little bit of stuff in Bootstrap like panels and wells or cards now, which kinda updates... The more modern approach to building apps is with these card views that are really popular, especially in Android apps and Google PWAs and stuff like that. And then of course we support that with our tools, so we have an official theme for our Kendo UI components that utilizes the Bootstrap for Sass source, and you can either get it as CSS or Sass, really, but if you use it in Sass it's very powerful because it maps all the variables to our CSS variables or Sass variables, so you can completely theme Kendo UI and Bootstrap with just one variable change, so that's pretty powerful stuff.

 

18:55 BR: Sweet.

 

18:56 EC: So I... Yeah, you can definitely find out more about that at Telerik.com/blogs. We've got some blog posts in the works for that as well, and I think I wrote one not that long ago about how to do that with Angular 2. So if you wanna see how to use Bootstrap 4 and Angular 2 and Sass together.

 

19:14 BR: Or Angular 5.

 

19:17 EC: Angular 5, yes.

 

19:20 BR: Right, I think that's what they're up to now. It's just angular. Just angular, no need for the two.

 

19:26 EC: Yep, so we've got resources there on Telerik.com/blogs and we'll put that in the show notes on Telerik.com/blogs as well. So other news. What kind of creepy AI stuff do we have going on, Brian?

 

19:44 BR: Oh yeah, well, I know I shared this on the slack and it's not specific to coding per se but I think everybody's seen the robots that open doors from, what's the company again? It's...

 

20:02 EC: Boston Dynamics.

 

20:02 BR: Yeah, it's Boston Dynamics. Yeah, that looks... You know what it reminded me of? Obviously not a robot but you remember in Jurassic Park when the velociraptors were smart enough to figure out how to open doors and then all of a sudden it's like okay we went from "We're in trouble but all we gotta do is get inside" to "Okay, game over."

 

20:28 EC: Yeah, that was exactly the scene that came to mind too is Jurassic Park, except since they're from Boston Dynamics they had terrible Boston accents as well, so that made it even more scary. So they're like, "We're coming from the Harbour, we're gonna get you."

 

20:46 BR: And then speaking of terrible Boston accents, that's a terrible Boston accent.

 

[laughter]

 

20:52 EC: Yeah, that was a pretty bad impression.

 

20:54 BR: Yeah, I won't even attempt... Even having lived in Boston for 12 years, I'm not gonna even attempt it.

 

21:03 EC: 'Cause you know people and they'll break your legs, or however that works. [laughter]

 

21:09 BR: I don't know, I'm better with.

 

[laughter]

 

21:11 EC: Mafia is usually the leg breaking people. But I'm sure if we pick on the Boston folks enough, I'm gonna get a black eye.

 

[laughter]

 

21:25 BR: That's horrible. To put a stop to that now, on another note, not related to robots that open doors or are gonna destroy us, if you look at more like IOT our good friend and former colleague Burt Colin had a fun article talking about how he hates notifications on his phone and on his computer and so he set up this thing whereby his Twitter notifications instead of popping on his phone or on the computer would actually change, flicker in a light bulb that changed colors. And so he... He wrote an article that talks about how he wrote the code and used obviously Azure, that's where he works, to connect to the Twitter API and to do some analysis of the text and stuff like that to send notifications to his light bulb, which is... Is probably less useful than the robots that can open doors but also less scary.

 

22:39 EC: Yeah, I think we were joking about this earlier, and I said "Yeah, that sounds really practical," but then it popped into my head like, "Yeah, actually it is." I saw this being used in a pretty effective way. If you have a nest, you can connect all these things in your house to your nest and they have the smoke detector now and stuff like that. So your nest system will flicker light bulbs and stuff if the smoke detector senses a problem. If you have, I don't know, for example the ones that can change color, it'll turn the lights red and flash them, trying to warn you that there's something going on, so that's actually a pretty practical use of something like that. It's not analyzing Twitter but it's utilizing the light bulbs and technology and stuff like that.

 

23:32 BR: Agreed, I think there's lots of actual practical uses if you kind of follow these ideas a little bit further. Burke was never the... His strength was not in practical ideas. [chuckle] But anyway, it's definitely a good post, you should check it out.

 

23:53 EC: Yeah, and just continuing that thought too, that's actually a really good idea if you have somebody in the house that's hearing impaired. They can't hear the smoke alarms going off but if you're flashing lights red that's a visual signal that they could pick up on. That's some cool stuff.

 

24:10 BR: Yeah. Now you need to go build it.

 

24:17 EC: So, should we AMP up this conversation?

 

24:20 BR: Oh, yeah. Okay. I brought these up and I was surprised to hear that you didn't know what AMP was, but hey, we live in somewhat different... We're in the same industry, but living in somewhat different ends of the house [chuckle] or whatever, different sections of the building. [chuckle] For those of you who don't know what AMP is, it stands for Accelerated Mobile Pages. And it's a Google project and a bit of a controversial one. The gist of it is it's a spec for building webpages that is supposedly designed to improve the performance of your page. And then the key thing here, though, and the controversial part is that Google then uses this to run the Google news, that if you ever load on your phone, or on Google search and you see those articles that pop at the top of the page and they usually have a little lightning bolt next to them, those are AMP-enabled.

 

25:26 BR: And they are pre-cached by Google, so it pre-loads them and stuff like that so that as soon as you click on them it feels like they load immediately. But there's been a lot of controversy partly because Google now says Google Stories... There's been a lot of controversy already over the fact that you kinda get this prioritized search placement if you use AMP. That's been probably the most controversial part, although not exclusively that. And Google kinda doubled down on this. Now they have this AMP Stories which are gonna essentially be a more interactive version on search, as well as it's gonna be enabled in your e-mail.

 

26:09 BR: So your e-mail can now have AMP cards that show up in Gmail. Those new features were somewhat more controversial, especially 'cause it seemed to be doubling down on this... As opposed to being an open web project, this is now very much a Google project that works specifically with Google, Gmail, and Google search and prioritizes content based on taking on the spec. There was a couple of articles that came out, partly this was based on the fact that there was an AMP conference that Google ran this week. A couple of them... If you want to look at why people are a bit upset, there's Tim Kadlec wrote The Two Faces of AMP which takes Google to task a little bit on this project being for the open web when they prioritize the search results based on your adoption of this.

 

27:15 EC: Yeah, I can see where they catch hell on this because they are very involved in the whole net neutrality thing. And that's a stance of, the web should be open and equal and free for everyone. And then they turn around and do something totally on the other end of the spectrum. Even though it's not the same exact conversation, it's still the same soul of the conversation, you could say.

 

27:44 BR: We're pushing adoption of a spec basically if you... By throwing these carrots at you that "Oh, we'll give you a higher placement on Google search results," which of course, everybody wants.

 

27:58 EC: It's like the web should be free and open for everyone, especially if it gives us an advantage.

 

28:05 BR: Well, and it takes advantage of, in essence, their monopoly over search. Microsoft talks about Bing. Everybody else is a far, far distant second and they're pushing this via their monopoly over search, essentially. Not a real monopoly, but an effective monopoly over search. So that's kind of what Tim Kadlec was getting at, but another interesting aspect that another guy named Ferdi Christon, I'm sorry if I mispronounce his name, gets at is that, while AMP says that it's about improving your page performance via this different spec, that based on his test, the spec doesn't actually improve the performance of the page. The only thing that it improves is as soon as you load that page, what Google goes and does is loads the pre-cached articles from their CDNs.

 

29:05 BR: So, the only real performance gains are because it's pre-loading this stuff. Even if you never click on the article, from what I understand from his article, behind the scenes, Google is actually loading that article already. That's why you get that instant response when you click it. Not because of the spec, but because of the pre-loading.

 

29:30 EC: Interesting. That's not a technical advantage, it's a platform advantage.

 

29:37 BR: Exactly.

 

29:38 EC: Again, it's not very open. Then everybody would have to implement that same type of behavior.

 

29:45 BR: Yeah, and to be truthful, a lot of people who don't even like it are like "We definitely think a focus on performance and getting people to... Finding ways to improve web performance is important. We just don't... And we're not even opposed to the spec, we're just opposed to some of these aspects of it."

 

30:07 EC: Yeah, yeah. That's a depressing note to end the show on.

 

[laughter]

 

30:13 BR: Yeah, so let's not end...

 

30:15 EC: Come on, Google.

 

30:17 BR: Let's do something else. Do we have something else that's left...

 

30:20 EC: I should do more Boston accents because I think that would go over very well with listeners.

 

30:24 BR: I've got a good one for you, one that you can relate to, being that you're also old.

 

[laughter]

 

30:33 EC: Thanks. I think my kids would agree.

 

30:36 BR: Yes, I'm sure they would. So, a guy named Frank Chimero wrote an article called "Everything Easy is Hard Again" and it's really... He's got a long history of working in the industry as well, more towards the design side but doing a lot of websites. And he talks about just how much changes and how... He comes back, for instance, he took a few years off doing other stuff and came back again and felt so much a change, and things had got... And web development had gotten so complex and the stack and the tool chain were just horribly complex. And taking a look at the fact that we tend to keep solving the same problems over, and over, and over again, except somehow making that more complex as we go along, at least that's his argument. And I related to a lot of it, personally, I find... I don't know if I could have succeeded being a new web developer today, or a JavaScript developer or whatever. If I was just starting out, I think it would have been intimidating and scary and... 'Cause I'm intimidated now.

 

[chuckle]

 

31:50 EC: Yeah, it's gotten a little more frustrating and less fun with some of the new frameworks and tools that are out there, such as Webpack and pretty much all of the top JavaScript frameworks right now are just... They feel overly complex with exception for maybe View or something, where you used to be able to just take a script and drop it in the header of your page, and you're good to go and be pretty functional. But now, you have to have this big pipeline of tooling and Webpack and understand all the tree-shaking going on, and all this stuff. The barrier to entry has certainly been raised.

 

32:34 BR: Yeah, it definitely has. To his point that some of the problems, some things have gotten more complex with reason. We have tons of screens. Whereas, when I started, there was literally we did 800x600 and that was it, that was all we had to design for. We didn't have multiple screens going from TVs, to phones, to whatever, watches even, so that is complex. But he also talked about things that haven't really changed but the solutions have gotten more complex. We keep adding complexity to things to the same problems we were trying to solve even 15 years ago, and while those solutions have gotten more difficult, we haven't necessarily solved the problem any better. And to use a dumb example, like just trying to put things side-by-side on the layout, we used to use tables with spacer GIFs and stuff like that, and now we use... And then it went on to using CSS and Float, and then it went on to using Flexbox and now CSS grid, but we're still trying to solve that problem, and while those are powerful tools, we haven't necessarily solved it any better, if that makes sense.

 

34:06 EC: Yeah, yeah. The layout issue, a lot of that does come with all the devices that we have to support now and responsive web has really gotten to be a necessity and it kinda has been since the first type of mobile devices have come out. But the more we add devices, the more that problem tends to grow. But as far as building a line of business applications and stuff like that, where most people are seated at a desktop or at least the worst case they might have a tablet they're walking around a shop floor with, having these big complex frameworks in place aren't always a necessity.

 

35:00 EC: And we've built perfectly well-oiled jQuery applications with those technologies that can do some pretty amazing stuff. And those things can tend to get kinda messy if they're not maintained well, but any application framework can have problems if it's not maintained well. But some of these newer frameworks just seem like they take so much effort to get installed and configured and up and running...

 

35:30 BR: With the learning curve.

 

35:31 EC: The learning curve is just steep, pretty... And at the end of the day, we're building a lot of the same apps we were building five years ago. And I think we're slowing ourselves down, for all intents and purposes, depending on your application that you're building, you could use something like asp.net webforms and be fine. If you're building a line at Business Apps for manufacturing process then that might be all you really need to get going and have a product that ships quickly.

 

36:12 BR: Yup.

 

36:14 EC: I think people spend a lot of time investing in what the latest and greatest framework is just for the sake of it's new and shiny.

 

36:24 BR: Yup. Yeah, for sure. But then again, as I wrote, you and I are old and we are unable to adapt.

 

[chuckle]

 

36:36 EC: Yeah. What's amazed me is watching the stuff come full circle. The newer frameworks and stuff, that's all good. I hope technology always continues to advance, that when you see things like, okay, we have an HTML file that contains JavaScript and inline styling and then we're like, "Yeah, let's break these things apart into different files and organize them." Then 10 years later, we're like, "You know what we should do? We should take all these things and put them in the JavaScript file together 'cause that sounds amazing and we've never done that before 10 years ago.

 

[chuckle]

 

37:17 BR: I've had this conversation numerous times when I was just getting started out and it was still the time of power builder apps, so basically all your logic and everything went on this kind of rich client and then we moved to doing everything via web. Well, the web was kind of immature from a... We couldn't put that much on the client, and the client was not particularly good. And in terms of computers were not that fast, so you're better off putting on a powerful server. Our frontends were thin and our backend was thick. All the logic was there. And then we started building Flash and Flex and saying, "Okay, we're gonna do this." Another company's had their solutions. We're gonna do this rich internet applications or whatever, I don't remember what Microsoft called it. We're gonna take all that logic off of the server and put it in back into the client, [chuckle] 'cause that works. 'Cause the client's better, whatever. And then we went back and it just goes back and it goes forth. We have the same debates. But every time, especially as you get older, I don't know if you've ever been told, I have literally been told that I just don't understand the problems of today and how different they are, kind of thing.

 

38:48 EC: Yeah, I feel like that's a cop out. I've gotten that type of feedback a lot of times. It really feels like a scapegoat for the whole conversation, where I say, "I don't like such and such a thing," and somebody says, "Well, that's because you don't get it." And it's like, "No, I get it. I can build stuff all day long, it doesn't mean I don't like it, 'cause I don't get it. I don't like it because I get it."

 

[chuckle]

 

39:20 EC: I get it very much, and that's why I see the problems that it's got too much of this learning curve, or too much of that technology involved. That's why I don't like it. So don't use that excuse on me, please. But we see these things getting more and more complex. But the trend of the industry seems to be that our inputs and experiences for the web and applications are actually going to get less involved with screens and more involved with things like bots and augmented reality and Micro apps and little ways to input data into a large system. It kind of makes me wonder why we're adopting these huge development systems when things are trending the other direction where the apps are gonna get smaller and easier to use.

 

40:18 BR: We are kind of headed back in that direction. We start putting all this stuff in the back of the client again in JavaScript. But I'd argue that the train towards serverless and all these serverless functions is in. And even server-side rendering, but that's, I think, not as big a trend right now, personally, but things like serverless and stuff, where we're starting to move a lot of this logic back into reasonable server-side functions.

 

40:50 EC: Yeah. Where we have giant SPAs that collect data because we have to key entry a lot of things and interact with a bunch of forums, we're starting to add other channels in where you're using a bot to enter your data, or it's being collected from a GPS sensor, or some IOT device rather than being keyed in. Does the necessity for that SPA still exist five years from now?

 

41:20 BR: Yup.

 

41:22 EC: Interesting conversation to have.

 

41:24 BR: Yeah. I agree.

 

41:27 EC: We should probably do a whole show on it sometime.

 

41:30 BR: We should, actually.

 

41:32 EC: Let the witch hunt began.

 

[chuckle]

 

41:33 BR: Alright. Well, is that a less depressing way to end the show?

 

41:38 EC: Yeah. We have some tail end announcements here too. Speaking of all these new fancy frameworks, we covered a lot of them, because we do support, not only jQuery, but View, React, Angular, AngularJS and many more on a lot of our products. So we had a Telerik Webinar for a.NET developer in line of tooling that includes Telerik reporting, and Zammer and all of the asp.net core, and asp.net technologies. So we have a brand new webinar that we just had about all of that stuff. And we also had a Kendo UI webinar. So if you're interested in React, in Angular, and jQuery, and JavaScript in general, that webinar is available too. So you can find those at Telerik.com/webinars. Those have already been aired. You'll find the links to YouTube on that page, and we have all of our videos up on YouTube. You can find them there as well. So YouTube.com/Telerik or YouTube.com/kendoui. You'll find all those videos up there. Those are some really good webinars that our team puts together every product release. And then we also have some special ones that we do throughout the year. We have some scheduled for things like Tag Helpers and I'm sure we'll have some built around JavaScript and some of those frameworks as well. So make sure you check out our webinar's page and keep up to date on stuff that we've done and have in the works.

 

43:24 BR: Yeah, sounds good.

 

43:26 EC: That does it for me, Brian. Do you have anything to add?

 

43:29 BR: Nothing to add. No. You kind of covered it all for me, thanks.

 

[chuckle]

 

43:37 EC: Alright, man, well, thanks for joining me on the show again. Thanks everybody for listening. Make sure you share the podcast with your friends and follow us on iTunes and SoundCloud. And we'll be moving our show notes to Telerik.com/blogs, where you'll find some posts there shortly. Thanks again, Brian.

 

43:57 BR: Thanks, Ed.


Ed Charbeneau is a Developer Advocate for Telerik
About the Author

Ed Charbeneau

Ed Charbeneau is a web enthusiast, speaker, writer, design admirer, and Developer Advocate for Telerik. He has designed and developed web based applications for business, manufacturing, systems integration as well as customer facing websites. Ed enjoys geeking out to cool new tech, brainstorming about future technology, and admiring great design. Ed's latest projects can be found on GitHub.

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