Very disappointed

37 posts, 0 answers
  1. ksuh
    ksuh avatar
    44 posts
    Member since:
    Jul 2006

    Posted 25 Apr 2008 Link to this post

    What a mess this new version is.  I'm going to have to spend at least two days "migrating" to this new version, consisting mostly of changing CSS files for no real reason other than you guys arbitrarily deciding to completely revamp how controls are skinned.

    And who over there thought that "EnableEmbeddedSkins" was a good idea?!?  What a pointless attribute.  Why, in previous versions, could we just specify a skin, and now we have to give it a skin name AND set this attribute?

    And what's with the documentation?  At least bother to keep the "Migrating From XXX for ASP.NET to ASP.NET Ajax at the same location for each control.  Right now, they're all over the place.  And some "Appearance and Styling" sections don't have a "Migrating" section.  Yeesh.

    Oh man, I could just go on and on...
  2. Todd Anglin
    Todd Anglin avatar
    2040 posts
    Member since:
    Aug 2005

    Posted 25 Apr 2008 Link to this post

    Ksuh-

    Let me first apologize for all of the trouble you're having and negative experience you're having with the new RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX. Obviously, we've put a lot of work in to making this transition as seamless as possible, but there are still many things we need to do better. Your feedback will definitely help us focus our efforts. In the mean time, let me address a few of your concerns.

    The migration process from classic controls to the new ASP.NET AJAX controls should definitely be a planned effort that you set some time aside for (when and if you choose to do it for existing projects). The new controls have been completely re-architechted on the ASP.NET AJAX framework to deliver the most optimized rendering and client-side performance possible. For this reason, many of the CSS styles have changed to accommodate the new efficient rendering and suite-wide naming conventions. I assure you no changes were made arbitrarily.

    As for the EmbeddedSkins property, it now exists because all common skins for the RadControls are now included by default in the main assembly. This means that you no longer have to maintain and deploy the clunky RadControls directory in your application if you use any of the provided skins. You simply set the skin name and the skin is applied! No extra files to manage. If you want to use a custom skin, we feel a simple single property that disables this internal skin rendering mechanism is an easy compromise. If you think we could make this process even better, definitely please share your ideas with us.

    Finally, in the arena of documentation, there are a lot of great improvements that are lagging a couple of weeks behind the official release. These improvements include a brand new online help system and new training tool. The new help should be introduced online very soon and I expect it will make it much easier to navigate and find the help topics you need.

    At the end of the day, the new RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX deliver a lot more performance and features to your applications and I'm sure you'll find them much more useful than the previous generation of controls. We've tried to make this transition to the new architecture as manageable as possible by releasing the ASP.NET AJAX controls in stages over the last year, but I know it's always hard to spend time just upgrading. Hopefully once you get over the hump you'll find the benefits we're promising.

    Let me know if you have any additional questions and I'll definitely be happy to help make this process as easy as possible for you.

    -Todd
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  4. ksuh
    ksuh avatar
    44 posts
    Member since:
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    Posted 25 Apr 2008 Link to this post

    > For this reason, many of the CSS styles have changed to accommodate the new efficient rendering and suite-wide naming conventions. I assure you no changes were made arbitrarily.

    This makes no sense.  You could've taken the existing CSS nomenclature and used that instead.  That's the whole point of CSS - you disassociate style from content.  Instead, you totally revamp the CSS names for no gain.  What was the point of renaming ".last" to ".rmLast" in the tabstrip, for instance?  That style was already in a top level style, so renaming it to avoid naming conflicts (as mentioned in the docs) is utterly pointless.

    Let me put it to you another way:  If every time you guys discover a "better" way of rendering your controls, are you going to rename all your CSS declarations as well?

    >
    If you think we could make this process even better, definitely please share your ideas with us [in regards to custom skinning].

    Easy.  Check the value in the "Skin" property.  If it matches one of the embedded skins, use that.  If it doesn't, then use the custom skin provided.  This would be the default behavior (i.e. "
    EnableEmbeddedSkins" is TRUE).  IF "EnableEmbeddedSkins" is set to FALSE, then treat any value in the Skin property as a custom skin.

    >
    The new help should be introduced online very soon and I expect it will make it much easier to navigate and find the help topics you need.

    This had better include new local help as well then, because right now it's a total mess.

    Edit: Ah, and I see that putting brackets into messages totally breaks the editor.  Wonderful.
  5. Todd Anglin
    Todd Anglin avatar
    2040 posts
    Member since:
    Aug 2005

    Posted 25 Apr 2008 Link to this post

    Ksuh-

    Thanks for the interesting idea on the EmbeddedSkins property. I could definitely see that as a viable alternative. I think the idea guiding that property now is that we want people to have feedback when they've entered the wrong name for a skin that they expect to be embedded. If we automatically convert the wrong name in to a custom skin name (and render the appropriate CSS), the control could render with unexpected results. We'll definitely do some research, though, and see if an automatic "switch" makes sense for all of our customers.

    As for the CSS rules, we changed the names so that the naming would be standardized for this next generate suite. The "classic" controls did have a hodge-podge of naming conventions and we made the decision to fix that since this is a major transition suite and establish consistent naming across the controls.

    In general, all controls now prefix their CSS classes with the control's abbreviation- rm for RadMenu, rts for RadTabStrip, rt for RadTreeview, etc. This prevents CSS collisions between the controls when they use the same class names (like rtLast and rmLast). This makes it much easier to debug the CSS and it should reduce the problems developers have had in the past when styles collide.

    We always hate introducing breaking changes, but since this is a major transition suite, we determined now was the best time to fix the problem and set everyone-up for better development in the future. You can rest assured that we won't arbitrarily change the CSS class names in the future now that we have a solid, non-colliding architecture.

    Again, I know changes like this are nothing short of annoying as a developer. I've been in your shoes and fought the same battles. In the long run, though, these changes will reduce your development headaches and set you up with the best tools foundation possible to build your apps. Hopefully that will become clear with some more time.

    If you need anything else, please let us know so we can help.

    -Todd

  6. Christopher Blickley
    Christopher Blickley avatar
    202 posts
    Member since:
    Jan 2004

    Posted 26 Apr 2008 Link to this post

    As Todd indicated, the upgrade to the new version must be planned out process.  While I previosuly would simply install the new version and fix a few things that may have broken, this was a more major undertaking.

    I converted each control one by one and fixed the issues as I went along.  I was also using custom skins for just about everything, but now that I've converted, I'm happy.  I have a much more robust and consistent client-side architecture and CSS design with the new version.  It was a hurdle, I even had inherited many of the controls to provide additional functionality and properties, but it is running really smooth now.

    I think for many users, the answer may be to not switch right away just because this version was released.  I had the time and it fit in the development life cycle for one of major apps that uses 75% of the RadControls, but other projects will wait until later in the year.

    That being said, while I think there are a few places the documentaiton could be updated and I've a few minor issues with some of the new controls in the suite, this has been the most stable release I've seen from Telerik.  Many times I have to wait until the SP1 of a release in order to actually implement the new version, but I have had no major issues with this new release.  Considering this is the first official non-beta version, I applaud Telerik.

    Just my thoughts, I know everyone will have different experienced.

    -Chris
  7. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Member since:
    Nov 2007

    Posted 06 May 2008 Link to this post

    I dont know about you, but my experiences with the new version its horrible. Right now my development its stopped because Telerik from several day, due several bugs.

    Im having hard times with my client because the slow progress...

    Im thinking what I do now, Im a dead end...

  8. Todd Anglin
    Todd Anglin avatar
    2040 posts
    Member since:
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    Posted 06 May 2008 Link to this post

    Antonio-

    I'm really sorry to hear you're having so much trouble. I think most people that are using the RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX have a quite different opinion. It is by far one of the most stable, complete, and feature packed releases of UI controls for ASP.NET that we've ever shipped. Not to mention much better performing than our older controls!

    But that said, you clearly aren't having that good experience...yet. Let's see what we can do to fix that. If you haven't already done so, I'd suggest that you open a support ticket for any serious problems you're having so that one of our trained support techs can give you the help you need right away. If you have other "simple" questions, feel free to bring them to forums so the community, the MVPs, and Telerik can help get you answers.

    Hopefully with some careful attention to the issues you're struggling with we can help change your opinion of the new RadControls and get you going back on the patch to success!

    -Todd
  9. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
    20 posts
    Member since:
    Nov 2007

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    Strange, what I see in the foruns its just bugs like Im saying... Its not stable, maybe its better than the first version, but for us resuming its just serving to slow down (or stop) our development.

    What its frightening its simple things like: a Grid + Editor inside + AjaxManager, its enough to destroy the controls... I think this is a simple task, a grid with an editor in a field, maybe a combo too, that I have problems too, with a non satisfatory sollution from Telerik with several lines of code, where I improvised and make myself a really good solution...

    Problems that stopped my development:

    Read-Only property in grid that acts as Visible (Have a workaround, but several useless lines of code have to be added)
    Bad Formation of grid/editor on IE6 and Firefox (No sollution)
    Grid + Editor + Ajax = Mess (No sollution)

    If you can do something for me I will apreciate your help.

    The problem is I dont have more time with my client, my development its stuck and I have no escuses anymore to do to him...

    Thank You

  10. Sebastian
    Admin
    Sebastian avatar
    9934 posts

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    Hello Antonio,

    I am sorry to hear that you are having such a hard time configuring the grid, ajax and editor controls from our official Q1 2008 RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX suite. I tested the online demos and the project from the KB article linked below under IE 6/7 and Gecko-based browsers and they seem to operate normally:

    http://www.telerik.com/DEMOS/ASPNET/Prometheus/Grid/Examples/GeneralFeatures/ColumnTypes/DefaultCS.aspx
    http://www.telerik.com/DEMOS/ASPNET/Prometheus/Controls/Examples/Integration/GridEditors/DefaultCS.aspx?product=grid
    http://www.telerik.com/support/kb/article/b454K-tae-b454T-cbb-b454c-cbb.aspx

    (having RadEditor as part of GridHTMLEditorColumn or residing in item template of template column and ajaxified by RadAjaxManager)

    Can you please test these samples on your machine to see the effect? If you experience with your particular configuration, I will appreciate if you assemble a working subset of your project, illustrating the abnormal behavior, and send it attached to a formal support ticket. We will examine your complete code logic carefully and will get back to you with our findings.

    Best regards,
    Stephen Rahnev,
    Technical Support Director, Telerik
    Instantly find answers to your questions at the new Telerik Support Center
  11. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Nov 2007

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    Like Im saying, I will have to wait my next client (because I will lose the current), to see the problems of Telerik solved in upcoming versions? Where the support insists that a Read-Only property acting like a Visible property its correct, and see, its just not my case, in forum have a direct question about that, and several with people putting a lot of code to solve this. Of course, this question its not that having stopped my work, and its a minor problem, that have a bad workaround, but have... Its just a sample of Im saying...

    See more:
    http://www.telerik.com/community/forums/thread/b311D-bbtgma.aspx

    Im really in a dellicate schedule situation with my client,

    Regards,

    _____________________________
    Hi antonio,

    While I cannot give you a precise estimate as to when/if the functionality will be available, I assure you that it will be considered. The present set of attributes cover the big portion of scenarios for the columns. Nevertheless, having an additional attribute to cover your case, without the need of extra code makes sense, and it will be reviewed for one of the upcoming versions of the control.

    Best wishes,
    Yavor
    the Telerik team
  12. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Member since:
    Nov 2007

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    In the case of the RadGrid + Editor + Ajax manager. They already have the sample project, and already reproduced the problem. Sended me a workaround that points to .css files that does not exists in Q1 2008 installation and not work at all.

    Thank you for your help. Please, see what you can do about my cases, Im really in a bad situation now....
  13. Sebastian
    Admin
    Sebastian avatar
    9934 posts

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    Hello Antonio,

    Regarding the usage of ReadOnly property in the same manner as the Visible property:
    Since both properties serve different purpose I do not think that the modification you request is attainable. Consider marking columns both with ReadOnly = true and Visible = false if you do not want it to be displayed either in regular or in edit mode.

    More about these properties you can learn from this topic:

    http://www.telerik.com/help/radcontrols/prometheus/?grdUsingColumns.html (paragraph Visibility and rendering of columns)

    Concerning the issue with the manager/grid/editor:
    It seems that the styles for the controls are not evaluated properly in their case. Does registering them manually using a link tag in the head section of the page eliminates the issue? Does using the relevant skins as external addresses the rendering issue your clients observed? I am still not able to recreate the problem referencing the resources from my previous post.

    Best regards,
    Stephen Rahnev,
    Technical Support Director, Telerik
    Instantly find answers to your questions at the new Telerik Support Center
  14. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
    20 posts
    Member since:
    Nov 2007

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    The bad formation its not solved. I oppened a access for Telerik see what Im talking about. No access till now.

    About readonly, like the user of this topic: http://www.telerik.com/community/forums/thread/b311D-bbtgma.aspx I dont think remove a field from the edit mode its a readonly function, its more like a visible ou display function. Like the name said: readonly, I need read and not edit, and thats I want to do. If I want a real "readonly" field, just like the name said its need to use the workaround in the link above.

    Now, if Telerik think that a readonly field its a field that have to be removed from the edition, not only disabled, what I can do about it?
  15. Christopher Blickley
    Christopher Blickley avatar
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    Jan 2004

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    Antonio,

    From my end, I haven't been able to reproduce the issue you have with setting a GridBoundColumn's readonly="true".  I've found this release so stable, that I was curious about trying to reproduce your issues.

    I have many grids where I have GridBoundColumns set to readonly, and then GridTemplateColumns for the columns that I want to be able to edit (definind the edit controls and validators in the ItemEditTemplate.  My GridBoundColumns display just fine in the edit mode and they don't disappear.  ReadOnly and Visible appear to work as expected and I can't find anything wrong.

    I also followed the link you referenced.  In that topic, the demo page that is given by Telerik appears to work fine too (maybe that was an issue prior to the final Q1 release, but it works now.  The OrderID column in that example doesn't disappear).

    -Chris
  16. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    http://www.telerik.com/community/forums/thread/b311D-bbtgma.aspx

    With me is the same behavior of the topic above.

    Try on Q1 2008 Display = false, Visible = True, ReadOnly = True, see in edit mode.
  17. Todd Anglin
    Todd Anglin avatar
    2040 posts
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    Aug 2005

    Posted 07 May 2008 Link to this post

    Antonio-

    First of all, I can definitely see what you're talking about. I've successfully recreated the problem your describing and I understand your frustration.

    That said, this doesn't so much represent a "bug" with the RadGrid so much as it does a "problem by design." Essentially, the RadGrid is designed to only display editable fields in the auto generated Grid in-line edit forms. The read-only columns are not rendered, as you've pointed out. If you use in-line editing, the read-only columns (obviously) are rendered; the same is true if you take control over your edit form and build it manually instead of relying on the automatic mechanism.

    I can definitely see your point, though, that there should be an option (at least) that lets developers tell the Grid to override the default behavior and render read-only columns in automatically generated in-line edit forms. Perhaps a new property like "RenderReadOnlyColumns" in the EditFormSettings block. I'll definitely make this suggestion to our developers for a future Grid version.

    In the mean time, hopefully the work around proposed in the other thread you referenced will work. I appreciate your feedback and I look forward to helping make your project a success.

    -Todd
  18. Vlad
    Admin
    Vlad avatar
    11100 posts

    Posted 08 May 2008 Link to this post

    Hi guys,

    Generally ReadOnly property for grid columns behaves exactly the same as in standard MS DataGrid and MS GridView. Adding read-only column editors by default will break XHTML compliance - disabled="disabled" is not valid XHTML. If valid XHTML is not necessary Enabled can be used instead ReadOnly.

    All the best,
    Vlad
    the Telerik team

    Instantly find answers to your questions at the new Telerik Support Center
  19. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Member since:
    Nov 2007

    Posted 01 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Bugs unsolved yet in the 1515:

    Bad Formation of the Editor + Grid
    Bad Formation with Firefox
    Codeless hierarchy grid, details dont fire auto update/insert/delete even using a sample that works in the old Grid (maybe not a bug)
    If you make a relation with the master and detail, on insert in the detail dont transmit the current master key to the detail (a basic task on this kind of operation). Like the microsoft access does...
    ReadOnly (Curiosity: Works well to hide a column on a hierachy grid, when visible or display dont work!)

    Its really unproductive work with all this bugs arround...

    A really visual generator, to make a simple fully-functional hierachy grid from tables, relating, editing, filtering as starting point, this will make a diference in time that we develop our applications.

    To me it seems less difficult do the same thing on plain asp.net, not too beatiful perhaps, than the new buggy Telerik ASP.NET RadControls 2008. After a new day lost strugling with RadControls its how I feel.

    Sorry.


     
  20. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Posted 01 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Dont get me wrong, I think Telerik as a great tool, but seems that the focus its on do the things or how beautifil it will be, but not in HOW to do it or how the controls will interface with the developer on more complex or real live uses, not just simple shows of design on demos with a lot of code behind, that can be much better, becoming a real wysewig tool.
  21. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Posted 01 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    I think more, this problems I know thats a matter of time to be solved and in the near future this new version it will become excelent, but for me my time table its the problem and its drive me crazy and for me that Im starting now, there is no choice but start with the new version.

    Thank you
  22. Sebastian
    Admin
    Sebastian avatar
    9934 posts

    Posted 04 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Hi Antonio,

    I assume that by "Bad formation of the Editor + Grid" you are referring to the built-in GridHTMLEditorColumn. Note that there is indeed a minor visual discrepancy with the editor height in the official Q1 2008 release which has been addressed for SP1. See this demo for confirmation:

    http://www.telerik.com/DEMOS/ASPNET/Prometheus/Grid/Examples/GeneralFeatures/ColumnTypes/DefaultCS.aspx

    The other two cases has been explained/resolved in the corresponding support tickets you started on the subject. Why the behavior of the ReadOnly property for grid columns cannot be changed according to your preferences has been discussed in detail by my colleague Vlad in his post.

    Regards,
    Stephen Rahnev,
    Technical Support Director, Telerik
    Instantly find answers to your questions at the new Telerik Support Center
  23. John
    John avatar
    10 posts
    Member since:
    Apr 2007

    Posted 05 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Somewhere in your QMS you will have setup your Test requirements to sign off each stage until the final stage of your controls development.
    It would be a great help to me and I assume many others to have a similar project.
    ie the Hello World test for the control.
    This test would be designed to demonstrate the absolute minimum requirements to get the control up and working.
    It would address web config requirements and any other contributing factors that are required to make the control achieve its basic operation.
    I would prefer an abundance of 'Best Practice' to allow me to;
    1 assess the time required to implement a new control
    2 assess the chance of the control meeting our objectives.
    I would prefer this rather than 'skins' and appearance as a little css goes a long way.
    The cost to Telerik is minimal indeed it is my guess that the discipline would provide a positive result to Telerik.
    You could invite contribution from your users with points rewards and it is my guess that make the rewards decent and the project would be amazing in days!

    rgs John
  24. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Posted 05 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    No Stephen, its addressed as a bug, and its not solved on SP1, see on the my support tickets. They say that will send me a hotfix and nothing till now. Im waiting this solution to enable the Ajax of my page. And may maybe solve the other problem with Hierarchy.

    Thank You.
  25. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Posted 05 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Thank you John, I really appreciated your help, but we are in another level than Hello World things, but it seems the major problems its the bugs in the new version. In the older I can do the stuff, not fast as expected,but yes... As you can see in the forum, Im not the only one having troubles with the new version...

    About the features, I think the Telerik will made some kind of Better "Property Builder", that seems stopped in time, that will be really really usefull to accelerate the development. Im aware that they are right now focusing on the bugs... I have faith that they will improve this side of the development tools soon, its a great thing to sell, not only beatiful demos with a lot of code behind...

    Thank You
  26. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Posted 05 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    I tell more: Before the SP1 I show the problems are in the 3 combos, but they solved just for one, leaving 2 combos wrong. The "Insert Table" combo its very usefull to the user and I have to disable the Ajax to alow the user put the tables inside.

    Thank You for your help,
  27. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Nov 2007

    Posted 05 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    "Can you please test these samples on your machine to see the effect? If you experience with your particular configuration, I will appreciate if you assemble a working subset of your project, illustrating the abnormal behavior, and send it attached to a formal support ticket. We will examine your complete code logic carefully and will get back to you with our findings."

    You already have an access to my development server, they accessed and already confirmed the problems. No solution, till now. You can see and simulate as much you want...

    Thank You Very Much
  28. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Member since:
    Nov 2007

    Posted 05 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Maybe, there is a better way to do the things:

    A demo on 1515 with a fully funcional Editor (with a full tool bar) in 3 fields, inside a fully functional grid (Edit, Filter, Group), with a fully functional hierarchy sub-table, with edit, insert, delete. Ajax Enabled. All with automatic update/insert/delete operations. On the Hay skin. No code behind.

    With SqlDataSources. 

    That's all I want to do, and with this I can use as start point.

    Thank You
  29. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
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    Posted 05 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Some more considerations:

    Please, all together, no separated samples. Resizeable editors.

    Can be on your sample site, that I can test on other browsers, isolating my webconfig, css problems, etc. 

    If you can do it, I have no reason as a programmer not do it too folowing your sample...

    Thank You in advance
  30. Ivo
    Admin
    Ivo avatar
    689 posts

    Posted 06 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Hello Antonio,

    You can find attached a sample working project using the latest in-house build of Telerik.Web.UI.dll v.2008.1.604 file which fixes the "Insert Table" and "Insert Symbols" dropdown skinning problems. The included Telerik.Web.UI.dll in the bin folder is a trial version, because our policies do not allow us to attach Developer builds in the forums. If you want to obtain the Developer version of the hotfix, please open a support ticket and we will send it to you right away. The fix will be officially released with SP2 in about 2 weeks.

    To avoid further misunderstandings, we kindly ask you to send sample project(s) which demonstrate(s) the occurring problems on your side. This will be the fastest way to reproduce the problems on our end and to provide a solution or a hotfix.

    Kind regards,
    Ivo
    the Telerik team

    Instantly find answers to your questions at the new Telerik Support Center
  31. antonio carlos tarasco
    antonio carlos tarasco avatar
    20 posts
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    Nov 2007

    Posted 30 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Endless problems with Telerik: v1.619.20

    Bad formation in design of a simple 3 columns grid.
    RadAjax manager shows nothing to select
    Cant create a hierarchy grid with property buider, that seems forgotem and outdated.

    I have screen saves and I will post on a ticket.


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