Too much reliance on table rendering?

4 posts, 0 answers
  1. Steve
    Steve avatar
    1851 posts
    Member since:
    Dec 2008

    Posted 15 Sep 2010 Link to this post

    1. RadWindow
    2. ListBox 
    3. RadComboBox
    4. ToolTip
    5. Others?

    Tables suck to style and take so much more markup, will we ever be free of them?
    The MVC Controls are totally table free it seems, do you think we'll ever get there on the ajax controls side?

    I mean, they make sense for Calendars, and Grids...but other jQuery plugins have been able to tooltip and window without the help of tables...
  2. Tsvetie
    Admin
    Tsvetie avatar
    1517 posts

    Posted 20 Sep 2010 Link to this post

    Hi Steve,

    Our RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX rendering is thought up with the goal of good standards support, while keeping in mind strong old browsers support (IE6/7). Unfortunately some of our clients still use TABLEs for layout and this is the sole reason for RadComboBox to use a TABLE for its internal skeleton since it scales well in all browsers with all types of metrics without the need for JavaScript.

    RadListBox on the other side is relatively new, but it needs very flexible vertical positioning of its buttons which unfortunately can't be done reliably cross-browser without using TABLEs and their vertical alignment (again without JavaScript).

    Regarding RadWindow, RadDock and RadToolTip, the TABLE elements in these controls were introduced with rounded corners and re-sizing. The decision in these cases, was between TABLE cells and DIVs. Taking into account problems with the re-sizing, rounded corners rendering and other issues that we had already ran into, when using DIVs, we were left with TABLEs as the only option. Actually RadDock was using DIVs only before, but we've had to change its rendering to use TABLEs because of such problems.

    Our MVC controls are relatively new and since they have degrading support for older browsers, they can choose their own rendering both based on standards and according to newer W3C recommendations.

    Sincerely yours,
    Tsvetie
    the Telerik team

    Check out Telerik Trainer, the state of the art learning tool for Telerik products.
  3. Steve
    Steve avatar
    1851 posts
    Member since:
    Dec 2008

    Posted 20 Sep 2010 Link to this post

    Understandable...but you can get rounding and shadows with pure CSS. 

    I know that's only for "modern" browsers...but will that ever change?  At some point you guys have to start pushing forward with the new standards right?
  4. Bozhidar
    Admin
    Bozhidar avatar
    680 posts

    Posted 23 Sep 2010 Link to this post

    Hello Steve,

    My name is Bozhidar Ruzhenov and I am one of the Front-end Developers responsible for the Telerik RandControls HTML/CSS markup.

    Our willingness is to use CSS3 and to create rounded corners and shadows easy and simple, but unfortunately it will not be possible until Internet Explorer versions 6, 7 and 8 have large part in the browser market.

    A lot of our customers are big corporations that are using internal applications and Internet Explorer 6. So, when we should deal even with so pre-historic browser, what about for Internet Explorer 7 and 8? I do not believe that they will disappear soon and will be replaced by Internet Explorer 9, which is expected to have really good support for CSS3. In that case, we should still use the old way to create rounded corners and shadows with images and extra markup. For me personally, it will be much more easier to use CSS3 and to create shadows and rounded corners for all the Telerik Skins just for a couple of hours instead to create a lot of sprites and extra markup.

    If we decide to skip IE browsers and to apply some CSS3 techniques, it will generate a lot of support, as we declare that out products are cross-browser compatible.

    In our control - RadFormDecorator for the text inputs we are using CSS3 for the rounded corners - check rfdRoundedCorners class. Of course it works in Firefox, Opera and WebKit browsers. For IE we are using different extra markup. In some cases that generates a lot of support and we have to explain why in one browser the code looks one way and in the other - totally different.

    I hope you understand our statement, we know we should try to find the perfect balance between the new techniques and all browsers, which now is predetermined by the large browser market of IE 6, 7 and 8.

    Greetings,
    Bojo
    the Telerik team

    Check out Telerik Trainer, the state of the art learning tool for Telerik products.
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