Changes and Backwards compatibility

6 posts, 0 answers
  1. Hugo Augusto
    Hugo Augusto avatar
    55 posts
    Member since:
    Jul 2004

    Posted 04 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Has a Telerik Customer for over 2 years now, I now know what to expect from new releases. A lot of Changes and Backwards incompatibilities. Telerik continues to remove properties, methods, change how controls work, renaming properties like the Image to ImageUrl without persisting the old ones for a while.

    I'm not saying this changes shouldn't happen, but I believe that they should happen progressively without causing a complete breakdown of a project after an upgrade. Like I wrote on a support ticket, I managed to convert as asp.net 1.1 project into a 2.0 project without these kind of breaks that we have with Telerik controls. Every upgrade is the same old story. Endless hours fixing code. For instance, why did you remove the Title property from the DockingZone object? Did you consider that it could be in use by someone? I know that I can have the same property using Attributes["Title"] but the thing is that I had to change a lot of code because of that. Another amusing change is the property Image to ImageUrl just because it sounds better and makes more sense. I agree, but you should have left the old property for some time so that we could change that without breaking the code.

    In a project where we use 5 controls, upgrading to a new release has always been a nightmare because we know that the next week will be just for code fix. The worst thing is, the faulty releases with bugs that only exist because probably no intense testing was made to the controls. Has I'm writing, RadTreeview has a bug where checking a checkbox with AutoPostBack=true and AutoPostBackOnCheck=false causes a postback. How can this happen in a final release? Of course, I just found that the problem wasn't mine after a lost day and finally a support ticket in a total of 1 day and a half lost for this issue.

    This kind of errors has soon has they are discovered by Telerik, should be reported in the control Forum so that everyone could know what to expect. The first thing I did after detecting the problem was look for an answer in the forum but with no success. If there was a Telerik Latest Bugs Topic for each control, I'm sure that it would help developers a lot.

    Telerik must understand that it's important for us, developers to trust in new releases and not be concerned about the number of days we will have ahead to fixe hundreds of lines once again. That is no way to work. You should be aware of this, and ensure backwards compatibility.

    I speak for my self, but I would rather have a one year release without any breaking changes and without bugs. It would be fantastic to just copy the new files over the old ones with everything working.

    Curiously, I found some properties where you show a warning of  "property deprecated" showing the new property to use. This would be perfect if you didn't transform that property to a readonly, breaking the code anyway and not allowing the developer to change to the new property over time.

    Microsoft did that with the 2.0 Framework. A lot of methods changed, but the old ones still where working with a warning in the compiler telling you to change  to the new one. That is the way to go.

    I hope you take this has a positive critique and keep up the good work.
  2. Ivo
    Admin
    Ivo avatar
    689 posts

    Posted 04 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Hi Hugo,

    Let me first apologize for all of the trouble and negative experience you're having with the new release of RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX. Obviously, we've put a lot of work in to making the upgrades as seamless as possible, but there are still many things we need to do better. Your feedback will definitely help us focus our efforts. In the mean time, let me address a few of your concerns.

    The migration process from classic controls to the new ASP.NET AJAX controls should definitely be a planned effort that you set some time aside for (when and if you choose to do it for existing projects). The new controls have been completely re-architechted on the ASP.NET AJAX framework to deliver the most optimized rendering and client-side performance possible.

    We always do our best to give prior notice on important changes and to mark properties/methods with obsolete/deprecated where needed. We also maintain a section in the documentation for changes and backwards compatibility and upgrading from previous version (For instance: http://www.telerik.com/help/aspnet-ajax/grdmigrationtoprometheus.html)

    Over the years customers have liked our aggressive release schedule with new features and improvements being added every month. We always strive for excellent quality but unfortunately some problems slip up in our QA process - that is why we fix them immediately upon anyone contacting us. We also put sticky threads in the forums with known issues but in most cases we just fix them ASAP.

    We are always available for assistance while you upgrade to a new version. Most of the times it is really smooth but if you hit anything unexpected please send us a support ticket and we will address it right away.

    I want to thank you and all other customers for providing continuous feedback on our releases. We appreciate your input! We are doing our best to improve with every release and your help is really great.

    All the best,
    Ivo
    the Telerik team

    Instantly find answers to your questions at the new Telerik Support Center
  3. Hugo Augusto
    Hugo Augusto avatar
    55 posts
    Member since:
    Jul 2004

    Posted 06 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Ivo,

    I do believe, that you make all the efforts to release bug free controls but you have to understand that Telerik controls are not open source. We all pay for them, and a lot. So the "Sorry, but please wait for the next release" can't be used all the time like it is now.

    When your support says that Telerik forgot to include a previously existing property in Rad Spell that allows to change the "Spell Check" text of the button and that the solution is to add 10 more lines of html+javascript to do that in all my pages, than you are causing me lost hours to fix an error that is of your responsibility. You gave me 1000 points (10 Dollares) for warning about that bug. I'm going to loose more than $10 to fix that!

    We all make mistakes, but not serious and inumerous mistakes. In the new release of Rad Dock (not the Ajax version) you have another bug that makes the control useless! The support team says that they don't have a solution for that!!! and that they will look at the problem and when they have a solution they will say something.

    I paid for the subscription, for the new controls, and I have to go back again to a prevoius version. I'm sorry, but the "We are doing the best we can" is not enough for me. This issues are causing me lost hours of work that cost money and Telerik can't always get off the hook with the traditional "Apologize for all of the trouble and negative experience" while we suffer the real consequences. If you gave 100 points for each time you say that, I wouldn't have to spend more money on the next subscription.

    If you don't have solutions for the issues in a short amount of time them you should return the money paid for each control that is not working.

    At least Telerik should warn users that some controls do not work as they should. You can be certain that if I knew that Rad dock was unusable I wouldn't have made a new subscription that will end in 215 days. Will you solve this issues in 215 days?

    Also, when you say to send a support ticket that you will address it right away, well, the right away is not quite true, since it's only possible to communicate with the support once a day. When they don't understand what the version was, we know that we will not see the anwser on the next day.

    I am complainning because I don't remeber to have this issues before. I used to think how great your support was that even used to send me fixes to controls javascripts that would only appear on the next update. Now I get the apologise and the wait for the next release...
  4. Ivo
    Admin
    Ivo avatar
    689 posts

    Posted 09 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Thank you for the feedback, Hugo.

    The support tickets you have opened with us are now addressed and we have provided the necessary explanations and workarounds - please let me know if they are helpful. Our general suggestion is to use the latest ASP.NET AJAX version of RadControls for your project. We have invested significant efforts to optimize and introduce new capabilities - and it will be much faster and easier for you to use it. We are ready to go the extra mile and help you internally to upgrade your project to the latest Telerik.Web.UI.dll.

    If you still think that RadControls do not meet your expectations, we are ready to provide you with full refund for your purchase. Please do not hesitate to contact me directly at ivo[dot]nedkov[at]telerik[dot]com - I will be happy to address any further issues you might have.

    Once again, I am sorry if this comes as a disappointment and I am sure your experience will be considerably better if you start using RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX - we have received a lot of positive feedback from customers who already use the new generation of RadControls.

    Best Regards,
    Ivo Nedkov
    Unit Manager, RadControls for ASP.NET AJAX
    the Telerik team

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  5. Hugo Augusto
    Hugo Augusto avatar
    55 posts
    Member since:
    Jul 2004

    Posted 10 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    I would consider migrating to the new controls but you left out Rad Rotator. Instead of developing Rad Split or Rad Tooltip, you should have released a Rad Rotator for ASP.NET Ajax. Can I still use the old Rad Rotator control with the new set?
  6. Ivo
    Admin
    Ivo avatar
    689 posts

    Posted 10 Jun 2008 Link to this post

    Hi Hugo Augusto,

    Yes, you can use the new ASP.NET AJAX controls together with the "classic" version of the ASP.NET RadControls.

    We are now working on the ASP.NET AJAX version of RadRotator and it will be available with our Q2 release at the end of July. Please, send me an email if you want to see a preview of the new RadRotator before Q2 - I can provide you with internal bits as soon as we have something stable.

    Best wishes,
    Ivo
    the Telerik team

    Instantly find answers to your questions at the new Telerik Support Center
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